malawi to see the children and had the privilege to see the children whom this will make a big difference. >> i'm hoping some of the girl schools in this country where they have annual tuitions more than $25 thou,000 a year, some them will jump in and help, the schools around the country that can do it. >> that and what we spend on clothes for children -- >> and we'll take any amount. >> absolutely any amount. >>caryl stern gets tonight's last word. thank you, caryl "the ed show" is up next. good evening, americans, and welcome to "the ed show" from new york. president obama and john boehner are on a collision course. tonight i'll tell you who is going to be blink first. this is "the ed show." let's get to work. >> the leverage is going the shift to our side where hopefully we'll do the same thing we did last time. >> republicans reveal their fiscal cliff end game.

give in on taxes and take the economy hostage again. congressman chris van hollen responds tonight. somehow raising the medicare eligibility age is back in the fiscal cliff discussion. david cay johnston says it would be a betrayal to do it, and he's here tonight. >> what we shouldn't be doing is try to take away your rights to bargain for better working conditions. >> in michigan, the president stands up for workers like he has never done before. >> these so-called right the work laws, they don't have to do with economics. they have everything to do with politics. >> tonight the president's big speech, and why the fight in michigan is an assault on workers everywhere. plus, major news on a white house push for immigration reform. in 40 years after man's last trip to the moon, a return voyage may be a reality. astronomer derrick pitts will tell you why the golden spike is a big deal.

good to have you with us, folks. thanks for watching. the new republican strategy is to take the american economy hostage when they don't get what they want. they realize their back is against the wall on tax rates for the rich, so they are turning their attention to another target, and it's a familiar one. here is tennessee senator bob corker talking about tax rates for the top 2% of americans. >> a lot of people are putting forth a theory, and i actually think it has merit where you go in and give the president the 2% increase that he is talking about, the rate increase on the top 2%. >> as usual, there is a catch. here it is. >> but republicans know that they have the debt ceiling that is coming up right around the corner, and the leverage is going to shift as soon as we get beyond this issue. the leverage is going to shift to our side where hopefully we'll do the same thing we did last time. and that is if the president wants to raise the debt limit by $2 trillion, we get $2 trillion in spending reductions.

and hopefully this time it's mostly oriented towards entitlements. >> so it's about leverage. it's not about the people. let's put this into context. the republicans held the middle class hostage two years ago and won. the bush tax rates were extended for everyone, including the wealthiest americans. this time around republicans have no leverage on the tax issue, and they know it. so they want to force negotiations on the debt limit. republicans are willing to take the american economy hostage again. president obama said very clearly that he would not play that game. >> so i want to send a very clear message to people here. we are not going to play that game next year. if congress in any way suggests that they're going to tie negotiations to debt ceiling votes and take us to the brink of default once again as part of a budget negotiation, which by the way we have never done in our history until we did it last

year, i will not play that game. >> today senator lindsey graham of south carolina challenged the president and laid out the same strategy of senator corker. >> yes, we will play that game, mr. president, because it's not a game. but in february or march, you have to raise the debt ceiling. and i can tell you this, there is a hardening on the republican side. we're not going to raise the debt ceiling. we're not going to let obama borrow any more money or any american congress borrow any more money until we fix this country from becoming greece. and that requires significant entitlement reform. >> meanwhile, president obama and house speaker john boehner met sunday at the white house. the spokespeople for both men said they agreed not to release details or characterize the meeting. it was their first one-on-one meeting in 18 months as boehner spokesman michael steele says he is still waiting on a counteroffer from the president to last week's republican offer. in michigan today president obama said the house just needs to pass the bill already passed by the senate.

>> if congress lets middle class taxes go up, economists will tell you that means people will spend nearly $200 billion less than they otherwise would spend. consumer spending is going to go down. all congress needs to do is pass a law that would prevent a tax hike on the first $250,000 of everybody's income. >> president obama still has the american people firmly on his side. and this is what the republicans don't get apparently. 60% support raising taxes on households earning more than $250,000 a year. this is why a republican congressman tom cole, once again, said fellow republicans should pass a tax cut ex-suspension for 9% of americans. cole said he believes the measure could pass in the house. >> in your caucus, is there a lot of burgeoning republican support for that? >> honestly, i think if it got to the floor, it would carry. this doesn't say we're going to raise taxes on anybody, okay,

this group for sure. get that done with. get it over with. >> that sounds good until you realize republicans have already chosen their next hostage. republicans are willing to risk putting our country into default once again because they're losing a tax fight. president obama shouldn't give an inch to any of these jokers, especially speaker boehner in these negotiations. the president still has the upper hand and the american people on his side. so we go off the cliff. big deal. it's going to be the republicans who are going to be held responsible for doing this to the economy. it's what they have wanted to do to the economy all along. one thing is for sure. liberal voices are starting to speak up in the blogoshpere and social networking. americans by the majority do not want medicare, medicaid and social security to be held hostage by the republicans in this round of negotiations. they want to play the debt ceiling later on? we'll have fun with that too. that's not where the american people are. issue after issue, step by step the republicans are walking themselves right out of any influence whatsoever, and all

they can do is threaten the president. and they're pretty good at it. get your cell phones out. i want to know what you think. tonight's question, will republicans use the debt ceiling as their hostage -- as their next hostage? text "a" for yes. text "b" for now, to 622639. you can go to our blog. ed.msnbc.com. we'll bring you results later on in the show. joining me tonight is congressman chris van hollen of maryland. he is a ranking member on the budget committee. congressman, good to have you with us tonight. >> good to be with you, ed. >> you bet. some republicans are now saying that they're willing to accept a rate hike on the top 2%, but there seems to be a catch. the quote that is catching everybody's attention comes from tennessee senator bob corker. he said republicans know they have the debt ceiling that's coming up right around the corner, and the leverage is going to shift. hopefully we'll do the same thing we did the last time. and, of course, he is referring to the summer of 2011. so the question is are they agreeing to rate hikes and then go ahead and take the economy

hostage? what is your response to that? >> well, they have part of this right, and they have part of it totally wrong. what they're right about is they see the handwriting on the wall and the fact that they're going to have to join with democrats to extend the middle class tax cuts, because if they don't, the whole country will see that they were willing to tank the entire economy and give everybody a tax increase in order to get this bonus break for folks at the top. so i think you're seeing more republicans recognize that fact. where they're just dead-wrong, ed, is thinking that they're going to gain leverage over this debt ceiling, because the american people are not going to stand for republicans turning right around and threatening to destroy the american economy by having the united states default on its debts, by refusing the united states government to be good, make good on its full faith and credit. because that's what they would be doing. this will boomerang on them, just like it did in the summer of 2011.

>> so is corker bluffing? >> i think that they're totally miscalculating both for the country and for themselves politically. >> is corker bluffing then? >> well, he may think in his mind right now that that's going to be leverage. but i think when we get into the new year, if this were to happen, if this scenario were to play out, he is totally deluding himself because threatening to tank the entire economy, which is what would happen if we ever defaulted on our debt, is not a kind of negotiating strategy that is going to be popular with the american people. >> sure. congressman, this is a one-shot opportunity for president obama to get more revenue. so why not just go over the cliff? let the rates go up, and work from there. i mean, the case can be made that the democrats will have plenty of leverage after the first of year. >> well, i think the president would rather resolve this as part of an agreement where we did deal with things like the debt ceiling so that people weren't playing games with that. there are also other important

things that the president wants to do. he wants to extend unemployment insurance compensation. we want to increase our national investment in our infrastructure and in our roads and bridges and our transit ways. there are important things we need to do to boost economic and job growth that you cannot get simply by going over the cliff. >> you think you can get this done, or do you think the democrats can get boehner to agree to those kinds of things, infrastructure investment now? >> well, that's what the president has said. i think he has been very focused on trying to get those important investments to help grow our economy. so that's why an overall agreement would be better than just doing it the messy way. >> and are you comfortable with just president obama and speaker boehner doing the negotiations right now? you know, like maybe just saving speaker boehner's position in the congress, but maybe bad for america. what about that dynamic? >> well, the president has said publicly that he is very focused on the priorities that he ran on

in this last election. and as you have talked about, this whole question of budgets and asking wealthier individuals to pay more was not a side issue in the campaign. it was a central issue in the campaign. and i have faith that the president is very focused on that. obviously every member of congress reserves the right to look at any agreement to make sure that it does reflect those priorities. but everything the president has said indicates that he is working to get an agreement that is good for the economy and deals with the long-term deficit in a balanced way, meaning that high-income individuals are going to have to contribute more and share greater responsibility. >> and what about raising the age of medicare eligibility? i mean there's a report that a deal where rates would go up to only 37% in exchange for raising the medicare

eligibility age. is that workable? >> i think that's a bad idea, ed, because that doesn't reduce health care costs overall. that simply shifts rising health care costs on to the backs of seniors. their median income, the median income of a senior on medicare is below $22,000. so i think that that's the wrong direction to go. republicans always talk about medicare reform. when they do it, they don't mean that they're going to reduce costs in the health care system. they mean they're going to unload those rising health care costs on to the backs of seniors. a very different approach than the president and democrats took in the affordable care act, where we reduce the overall expenditures without just passing them on. >> congressman chris van hollen, good to have you with us tonight. thanks for your time. >> good to be with you too, ed. >> and remember to answer tonight's question there at the bottom of the screen. share your thoughts with us on twitter and on facebook. coming up, will he or won't he? president obama hasn't officially put raising the medicare eligibility age on the table, but some progressives are worried he might. david cay johnston will explain why that move just doesn't make any sense at all. stay tuned. you're watching "the ed show" on

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president obama stands up for workers in michigan as governor snyder launches a stealth attack to strip union rights. congressman gary peters and cindy estrada of the uaw on what his move means to michigan workers, that is coming up. and later, your next vacation could be out of this world. find out how soon you're going to be able to blast off to the moon, and just how much it's going to cost you. share your thoughts with us on facebook and on twitter using the #edshow. coming right back. have a good night. here you go. you, too. i'm going to dream about that steak. i'm going to dream about that tiramisu. what a night, huh? but, um, can the test drive be over now? head back to the dealership? [ male announcer ] it's practically yours. but we still need your signature. volkswagen sign then drive is back. and it's never been easier to get a passat. that's the power of german engineering. get $0 down, $0 due at signing, $0 deposit, and $0 first month's payment on any new volkswagen. visit vwdealer.com today.

and welcome back to "the ed show." thanks for watching tonight. president obama didn't campaign on it, but it's now being floated as a real concession in

the fiscal cliff talks. raising the medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67. why would democrats offer it? are they really going to do it? to get a tax deal done they would do that? the idea was first brought up during the grand bargain talks of 2011. the white house seemed open to the concept at the time. >> it's been reported the president is willing to look at things like raising the retirement age and medicare, additional savings in medicare. >> now a democratic aide tells the new republic the president put it on the table once before. i wouldn't be surprised if he did it again. for progressives it's a bad idea, because medicare is a program that works. and raising the retirement age isn't going to solve the problem at all. in fact, raising the eligibility age would shift costs elsewhere. but republicans seem ready for a fight with the president. >> he is afraid of going into a progressive meeting and say if we don't adjust the age for retirement and means test

benefits for social security and medicare, they're going to go bankrupt. >> nancy pelosi was skeptical about the possible proposal last week. >> first of all, show me the money. i don't even know why that is something that people think is going to produce money. what are we going to do with people between 65 and 67? what is it, a trophy that the republicans want? is that the trophy that they want in order to do what is right, to raise -- to raise the rates for the wealthiest people in our country? >> in addition to giving republicans a victory on entitlements, progressive thinkers make the point that raising the eligibility age is a really stupid way to save money because it just forces people to stop buying health care through medicare, which is relatively cheap, and start buying it through private insurance, which costs way more. as the new republic points out, the federal government would save money, yes, but only because state governments, employers, and individual seniors would pay more. how much more? estimates from the center for budget priorities and policy

shows the federal government would save about $5.7 billion, while the rest of the health care system would spend $11.4 billion more to give the same benefits. actually, this is what the republicans would like because it would help them kill the program. i'm joined tonight by pulitzer prize winning journalist david cay johnston, author of the book "the fine print." david, great to have you with us tonight. >> good to be here. >> the numbers are so telling here. why would the democrats even consider this in conversation? >> ed, it is stunning that they would do this, because it's going backwards. five years ago senator barack obama said that by 2013, we should have universal health care. this is going in the wrong direction. and it's paul ryan economics. we'll save you $1 of taxes, but you got to spend $2 somewhere else. and this is a good idea because? this is a very bad idea. and the thing to do is i think people should be calling the

white house, calling their congressmen and saying go the other direction. tell the democrats -- the republicans you want to lower the age of medicare to 55 and make it optional at age 55. that's the direction we should be going. >> but if the numbers don't add up, and if you're going to spend twice as much money on health care, why would they even consider it? why was it even considered in 2011 for that matter? >> well, because i think that president obama is not nearly as progressive or liberal as a lot of people think. he surrounded himself with people from wall street. but also we have unfortunately had the liberal and progressives in the country reacting to what the right-wing republicans want instead of promoting their own agenda. >> sure. >> and as long as you're reacting, you're playing defensive ball, you're going to lose the game here. the reality is that it will save us a lot of money if we get universal health care. in fact, if we got universal health care with no out-of-pocket expenses and ran it the way the french do, it's the functional equivalent of eliminating, almost

eliminating the income tax. people don't realize, that's one of the two big things ruining our economy. and why is health care an entitlement that is bankrupting the country? why isn't a national security apparatus that costs more money than all the income taxes we pay for all of the things that it does to fight a war we're not going to face, why isn't that an entitlement issue we should be raising? >> you know, i think about the american worker. having someone work a couple of years longer, this in a way, as you've said, it's a death sentence for some people who don't have office jobs. what do you think? >> this is cruel. it contradicts the religious teachings that so many republicans are constantly throwing at us. you know, they should go back and consult the old testament about this, which has a very simple word to describe policies that take from those with less to give to those with more. and that word is evil. >> would this strengthen obama care in any way, shape or form as you see it the way the numbers scratch out? >> i have a very hard time seeing that. i mean, obama care, remember,

retains the insurance companies. it builds on our inefficient, high-cost system of sick care, nonsystem sick care instead of moving us toward a public service model. but raising the age here, to those people -- ed, simple fact. the data show that wealthy americans of all races, but especially white americans, their life span is expanding. poor people, white poor people, black poor people, their life expectancy is not growing, and in some cases falling back. this is unbelievably cruel. and i can't believe we're discussing it. people should call the white house and say no, no, no. >> david cay johnston, great to have you with us tonight on "the ed show." thanks so much. coming up, a critical issue affecting millions of workers. republicans put union-busting on the fast track in the state of michigan. even the president is weighing in. if you're an "ed show" viewer, you're not going to want to miss this. stay with us. we're right back. my name is marjorie reyes, and i'm a chief warrant officer.

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we don't want a race to the bottom. we want a race to the top. >> thanks for staying with us on "the ed show" tonight. the president did something today he has rarely done before. he has taken sides on a local issue in the state of michigan. the lame duck republicans are trying to turn michigan into a right-to-work state. it means workers can take advantage of union wages and legal protections without paying any dues. it's union busting, and the republicans are doing it at a record pace. michigan republicans fast track the bill on a technicality.

there are no public hearings. there will be no public hearings. public hearings, a thing of the past right now. small groups of local workers started rallying at the capitol on thursday. but the controversy could be over in the next 24 hours. the republican governor could sign the bill into law as early as tomorrow. this is where the president comes in. he had been scheduled to help announce daimler-chrysler's factory expansion outside detroit. president obama took the opportunity to tell the workers and michigan republican leaders where he stands on union busting. >> we should do everything we can to encourage companies like daimler to keep investing in american workers. and, by the way, what we shouldn't do -- i just got to say this -- what we shouldn't be doing is trying to take away your rights to bargain for better wages or working conditions. we shouldn't be doing that.

you know -- [ cheering and applause ] you know, these so-called right-to-work laws, they don't have to do with economics. they have everything to do with politics. what they're really talking about is giving you the right to work for less money. >> this is what the president is talking about. a union membership goes down. as it goes down, all middle class income shrinks. without collective bargaining, workers lose the power to demand better wages. this is a direct attack on the middle class. >> you only have to look to michigan where workers were instrumental in reviving the auto industry to see how unions have helped build not just the stronger middle class, but a stronger america.athe stronger middle class, but a stronger americhe stronger middle class, but a stronger americe

stronger middle class, but a stronger americ stronger middle class, but a stronger america. >> so how do they stack up here? here is a comparison between union states and nonunion states. federal statistics show people in so-called right-to-work states make $5500 less per year. their states spend nor than $2600 less on every school student. the workplace fatality rate is almost 53% higher in right-to-work states. and 14% of nonunion workers are uninsured. that's almost five times more than the average among union workers. women make more if they work in union-friendly states. african-americans make more, hispanics make twice as much in union-friendly states. the lame duck republicans in michigan in their legislature, well, they don't -- they don't want to hear anything about that. they claim they're helping the michigan economy. but michigan voters don't seem to agree. this is a number that is astounding. a new poll out shows that only 6% of voters surveyed want the legislature to make michigan a right-to-work state. union members say michigan republicans are simply hurting

the economy. >> tell me what democracy looks like! >> we're still here. we're still going to fight, even when the odds are stacked against us. >> i know that they're saying that right-to-work will make more jobs. but i don't think that. i believe that right-to-work is going to hurt the people out there. >> to take that away by this kind of right-wing attack by the republican administration is a disgrace to everything michigan has stood for for decades and decades. >> so, governor snyder, i find it interesting. if you sign this, how can you stand in front of the people and say this is what the people want with a number like that? this is how serious this issue is tonight. the entire democratic delegation called a special meeting with the michigan governor, senator debbie stabenow had to join by telephone. they all asked the governor to either veto or delay the legislation. >> we told the governor

something which we're not sure he fully, frankly, understood. which is that nobody is required to join a union. quite the opposite under law. >> congressman dingell and conyers say they tried to explain to the governor that people won't lose their jobs if they don't pay union dues. the meeting might not have helped. the governor said this moments after the congressional press conference was held. >> michigan workers are hard-working people. and shouldn't they be able to make the choice to say they see value in the union? and again, hopefully it would make the unions more accountable and work harder to show the workers the value proposition as to why they should pay. >> governor snyder is set to sign the bill tomorrow to make michigan the 24th state to become a right-to-work state. senator carl levin called this a tipping point. the president calls it a race to the bottom. >> we don't want a race to the bottom. we want a race to the top.

we -- america, america is not going to compete based on low skill, low wage, no workers rights. that's not -- that's not our competitive advantage. there is always going to be some other country that can treat its workers even worse. right? what is going to make us succeed is we got the best workers, well-trained, reliable, productive, low turnover, healthy. that's what makes us strong. and it also is what allows our workers then to buy the products that we make, because they got enough money in their pockets. >> the president is correct. workers make this country great. when unions take a hit, the workers do, as well. but here is what i find interesting. take the pen, governor snyder, sign it, and then turn to the cameras and say "this is what the people want." you can't do that because you'd

be lying, or maybe you have the guts to do that. i have never seen a number like this that 6% of the people want this to go through. it kind of makes you feel like you have lost your democracy, doesn't it? but this is what happens. the republicans have never stopped their attack on labor, and they never will. is this a result of 2010 and low voter turnout? it could be. but this certainly sets the table for 2014 in michigan, in wisconsin, and in ohio. i'm not nearly done talking about this tonight. i'm just getting started. there is a lot more coming up in the next half hour with "the ed show." stay with us. we're right back. >> i took a position, and i believe i've got a good position because i believe in the workers of the state of michigan. >> michigan democrats make a last-ditch appeal to governor rick snyder to stop his sneak attack on workers. congressman gary peters was in the meeting. he joins me, along with cindy estrada of the united auto workers, next. there is a big announcement from the white house on immigration reform.

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governor snyder, just say no! governor snyder, just say no! >> thanks for staying with "the ed show" tonight. a state known for its unions is in serious jeopardy tonight. republicans are about to really stick to it organized labor in the state of michigan. lame duck republicans want to turn michigan into a right-to-work state. it would mean workers could get all of the benefits of the unions without paying dues. they want to just rip apart democratic infrastructure. that's all they want to do. today democrats called a special meeting with the governor to stop the bill.

>> this is a very, very serious matter as we have seen in labor management relations in this state i believe in our lifetime. >> tonight workers are planning to stage massive rallies at the state house tomorrow. security is tight. the governor could sign the bill within the next 24 hours. let's turn to congressman gary peters of michigan, and also cindy estrada, vice president of the united autoworkers. great to have both of you with us. first of all, you, congressman. you were in that meeting today. how determined do you think governor snyder is to get this thing done when he has said previously that this was not one of his top priorities? >> he seemed very determined in that meeting, which was really quite surprising. as you said, he has been saying over and over again, this is not part of his agenda, not something that he wanted to move forward. and yet we've seen a 180-degree switch right after the election. and now he is bound and determined to push this through. this is a bill that will undermine labor unions in the

state that really created the labor movement in america. he wants to push it through. he listened to us. but i don't think it had made any difference in his mind. and what i think is particularly outrageous is not only does he want to push this through, he wants to do it in such a way as to prevent the people of the state of michigan to actually have a vote. and one of the things we asked in that meeting is that if this bill is signed into law, take out an appropriation. they put into this bill a 1 million dollar appropriation. and under our state constitution, if there is an appropriation, you cannot have a public referendum from the people getting out there and signing petitions. so using a parliamentary technique, he is trying to stifle the ability for the people in the state of michigan to stand up for something that is absolutely critical for the middle class in our state. >> so the only thing labor can do right now is wait until 2014, change both houses and the governor's chair to have a chance at eliminating this.

cindy estrada of the united autoworkers, how could labor not see this coming? >> you know, part of not seeing it coming was because for a long time the governor has said he didn't want this divisive fight. and we went to the table, a number of unions, to talk to the governor about how we work together in the same way that we did in the auto industry. and so he misled us. he made it sound like he wanted to sit down and figure out how to keep this off his table. but when the time came for him to take leadership and be a real leader, he failed. and he blindsided us, frankly. i mean, he was saying that he wasn't going to put this on his agenda, only to turn around after many, many talks and put it on his agenda. >> here is governor snyder explaining why he might sign the bill. here it is. >> i don't believe this is fundamentally anti-union. i believe it's pro-worker, giving workers more authority about their own lives and situation and giving them the freedom to choose. >> cindy, is this pro-worker? >> this is not pro-worker. pro-worker is when you have a

transparent process, when you invite workers to the table to be part of that process. and what the governor did with the legislature, by not allowing it to be an open debate, by not allowing the public to take part in this debate is not pro-worker. pro-worker is when you do what we did in the auto crisis, when labor and management get together, and you value what workers have to say, and you value the creativity that they bring to the table and the innovation. this governor is not pro-worker. let's make one thing clear. >> congressman, this cuts right to the fabric and the culture of the state, the history. is it all over? >> it's not. this is going to be a fight that is going to continue. it's unfortunate this governor wants to push this through in a lame duck session. in fact, he knows because democrats picked up seats in the state legislature, if it went into next term, he would not be able to pass this. in fact, he is basically just thumbing his nose at the voters of the state of michigan, putting this through in a lame duck, and using a parliamentary technique in order to prevent a referendum. this just makes people angry. it makes them outraged.

and i believe this is an absolutely outrageous action by the governor, and there will be a price to be paid. >> cindy, what about the outside groups that have poured money into the state to try to make this a right-to-work state? how much of an influence have they had in this? >> you know, i don't think they're going to have the influence that they want to have. they put $2 million just in the last few days into the state of michigan, the koch brothers, you know, groups with alec, and it really is these outside influences trying to change our state. you know, we had a governor who ran a campaign saying that he wanted to be transparent. he wanted to be data-driven. he wanted to work together with management, and he wanted to work together with labor so we could create jobs and change education and get the skills that are needed in the state. instead, he is allowing these outside groups like alec and other insiders like dick devos, very rich corporate ceo types. and they're not going to be successful in beating back workers.

we're going to show that it's actually energizing our base. and people are saying that they're angry about it. >> what was the name you put out? what was his name? dick what? >> dick devos. >> that's the amway guy. >> yep, that's right. >> okay. >> and governor snyder seems to have more -- he seems to pay more attention to him than he does the citizens of the state. and that's very unfortunate. >> moving forward here, the only option you have here is 2014. congressman, in some way could this really solidify democrats going into a midterm where they're going to be needed? >> i think it will. it's going to energize people who understand that we had a governor who said that he was about bringing people together, and instead he is driving a major wedge in our state. at a time when our economy is recovering as a result of the auto industry recovery, and all the work that president obama has done, at a time when our economy is

coming back, instead of bringing people together, he is driving a wedge between people. this is energizing people. it's an emotional issue. and i believe that people are going to turn out and make sure that their voices are heard. in fact, we expect to see that tomorrow on the grounds of the state capitol when thousands of people have their voice heard. i just hope the people inside the capitol actually listen. >> cindy, who benefits from right-to-work legislation? >> no one benefits from right-to-work legislation. we know, and you said earlier that it means lower wages. it means less jobs. the only ones that think they're going to benefit are outside groups like alec and the koch brothers. they think that they're going to break unions, that they're going to break communities so there is more for corporate ceos. and what we're going to show them is the opposite. this is going to inspire us and galvanize us because working people -- the only way you're going to recreate michigan or any state is if everyone is at the table. right-to-work is bad for everyone. it's bad for union, nonunion. but one thing it is going to be good for right now, it's going to show working people in the state of michigan that we, in

fact, need to be at the table, that we can't have outside organizations or legislatures or governors who think that they have all the answers and they don't want to include everyone in the discussion. that's not the way you recreate a state. that's not the way you contribute in a global economy. workers have a lot to offer. it's unfortunate that governor snyder didn't get that. >> congressman gary peters, cindy estrada, uaw, great to have you with us. thanks so much. >> great to be with you. stay tuned. we'll tell you exactly where they're going in the next fight. . . don't go over 2000... 1200 calories a day. carbs are bad. carbs are good. the story keeps changing. so i'm not listening... to anyone but myself. i know better nutrition when i see it: great grains. great grains cereal starts whole and stays whole. see the seam? more processed flakes look nothing like natural grains. you can't argue with nutrition you can see. great grains. search great grains and see for yourself. for multi grain flakes that are an excellent source of fiber try great grains banana nut crunch and cranberry almond crunch.

military families face, we understand. at usaa, we know military life is different. we've been there. that's why every bit of financial advice we offer is geared specifically to current and former military members and their families. [ laughs ] dad! dad! [ applause ] ♪ [ male announcer ] life brings obstacles. usaa brings advice. call or visit us online. we're ready to help. and we are back. president obama defined the so-called right laws as the right to work for less during a speech in michigan today. we invited our viewers on twitter and facebook to tell us what right-to-work means to them on facebook. anthony rice wrote "being from south carolina, a right-to-work state, the only right you have is none. the employer has all the rights."

joe marcus wrote "here in florida, right-to-work means working on labor day for straight time." and katie walzer calls it "right to work until it hurts, hurts your pocketbook, your health, your family." share your thoughts with us on facebook and on twitter using the #edshow. coming up, a colorado company plans to send you, if you have the right money, to the moon. derrick pitts of the franklin institute on what it means for the future of space travel. stay with us. we're back.

so what is going to be the next battle on the horizon? on the president's agenda, all signs are pointing to immigration reform. with most americans favoring a pathway to citizenship for undocumented workers, fixing the country's immigration system seems like a no-brainer for the white house. as "the los angeles times" reports, the president will push for immigration reform as soon as the fiscal cliff negotiations are over. "the times" reports president obama wants a catch-all bill that would also bolster border security measures, ratchet up

penalties for employers who hire illegal immigrants, and make it easier to bring in foreign workers under special visas. the white house will launch a social media campaign early next year. cabinet secretaries are preparing to make their case for how changes in immigration laws could benefit businesses, education, health care, and public safety. congressional committees could hold hearings on immigration legislation as soon as late january. with some republicans willing to come to the table and work towards a solution, the timing seems right for the cause. and it's the issue that just makes fiscal sense. as think progress points out, legalizing the 11 million unlimited immigrants in the united states could boost the nation's economy, tax revenues would definitely increase, and giving legal status to young educated immigrants would have a ripple effect, increasing wages

and boosting employment. progressives are ready to back the president on this. as one service employees international union official puts it, the president can't guarantee us the outcome, but he can guarantee us the fight. we expect a strong fight. tonight in our survey, i asked will republicans use the debt ceiling as their next hostage? 99% of you say yes. 1% of you say no. coming up, a private company is now taking reservations for lunar vacations. astronomer derrick pitts will tell us what is involved on a vacation to the moon. stay tuned. machine [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso.

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tonight, it's been 40 years since apollo 17 made the last manned voyage to the moon. and now a private company from colorado is planning return trips. the golden spike company announced thursday plans to fly private clients to the moon. golden spike is led by a team of veteran nasa executives and rocket engineers. their expedition takes two people to the moon at a time. and the price tag, as you can imagine, isn't cheap. for two people, the cost is going to be $1.5 billion that would be $750 million per person, if you're interested. included in the package is 36 hours of lunar surface time, two spacewalks, equipment, and training all included. unlike the apollo missions to the moon, the lunar lander will be launched before the crew. and here is how it's all going to come down. first the lunar lander is

launched and sent to the moon. the lander automatically orbits the moon and waits there. then the crew vehicle is launched. the crew is sent to the moon where they meet up with the lunar lander. the crew then enters the lander and prepares to land on the moon. after 36 hours of moon time, the lander takes off, meets up with the crew vehicle, and returns to earth for a splashdown in the ocean. ah, so simple. golden spike hopes their first moon expedition will be ready by the year 2020. joining me tonight derrick pitts, chief astronomer at the franklin institute in philadelphia. he has been designated by nasa as an astrobiology ambassador. mr. pitts, good to have you with us tonight. i don't know if any frequent flyer miles go with this or not. it's pretty exciting. do you think they're going to be able to pull this off? it's such a huge project. do you think it can actually happen?

>> i just want to know if i have to bring my own sandwiches, ed. >> well, i would imagine they have something packaged up for them, seeing that these former nasa guys there, they know how to do this, right? >> yes, they do know how to do this. and you know what? they can pull this off. the way they plan to do this is by using existing technologies. and they're planning to use the infrastructure that is currently being built by the new commercial space ventures like spacex and others that are coming on line to fill in some of the international space station supply needs and things of that sort. and of course spacex is developing a heavy lift launch vehicle that could take payloads up to the moon. so this makes a lot of sense because you don't have to go through the great expense of building up the whole system to start with. >> so you have 36 hours on the moon and two spacewalks. what do you do on the moon? >> oh, there is so much to do on the moon. it's largely unexplored. you know, we looked at a very small amount of the surface of the moon. so almost any rock you turn over

on the surface is bound to be some new and wonderful discovery. so the kind of science that can be done if there is a way to get people there on a more frequent basis, or for them to spend more time there, or get more researchers there, that's a boon to science of the likes we've never seen before. so this really would be a great way to jump-start exploration of the moon. >> pretty amazing. what type of training would take place to get people ready for something like this? just like what the astronauts go through? >> yes, just like what the astronauts go through. it's a long-term mission in that, you know, it's easily a week or so to do this. and you're in zero gravity or near zero gravity for that. you have to get used to living and working inside a space suit. you have to get used to the idea of being in a craft that is going from the earth to the moon. you have to get used to the idea of actually being on the moon. and since this is all such a new environment for anybody that is doing this, you know, there is a consideration that one must have

for what it would be like to change environments like this to be out there in space and be on the moon. you wouldn't want to have somebody freak out, ed, on a trip like this. it wouldn't work out very well. >> no. you would definitely have to have your act together between your ears to do something like this. >> yes. >> there is no question about it. and that's after spending all the money. is this safe? do you anticipate this would be a safe procedure? >> yes, i do anticipate that it would be a safe procedure. after all, any of these new ventures that are coming up are required by law to be able to meet the same sort of stringent safety regulations that nasa has to meet for any of its missions. and the difference here is that nasa has spent a lot of time and money and effort to be able to iron out all of those difficulties. and the new entities that are coming on are taking advantage of the work that is being done. >> ultimate goal here. what is it? >> the ultimate goal is to get us back in space. you know, humans are meant to